commorancy (Newbie) 08/31/07 02:33 AM	Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	I'm not sure what the developer guys did between Cubase SX 3 and Cubase 4, but 4 is extremely buggy and unstable compared to SX 3 for what I do. I've never had any problems with either LE or SX 3 with MIDI connections, but regularly in 4, it just randomly loses connection to MIDI devices and simply chooses not to talk to them. I have to restart the app to get it to reconnect. Sometimes, even that doesn't work. Further, I'm trying to load a project with various VSTs including FM8, Absynth and Battery 3. On load of this specific project, Cubase 4 goes into lala land when trying to load and setup VSTs for the project and the whole app hangs forcing me to kill Cubase 4 with Task Manager. Sometimes the project will load, sometimes it won't. I'm not certain of what the issue is, but it's extremely frustrating. Again, Cubase SX 3 was rock solid and I never had MIDI connection issues ever. I did have one occasion, with SX 3, when I couldn't load a project with VSTs after quitting out. On load, it just hung Cubase SX 3 and I never was able to get into that project again. But, it was so early into that project, I just started it over. I'm very disappointed in the stability of Cubase 4 over Cubase SX 3. I like some of the new features in Cubase 4, but it really doesn't help when you can't get into projects again later because the whole app just decides to hang. I'm on Windows XP using the latest update of Cubase 4. I have a midiman USB MIDISPORT 4x4 with 3 devices attached (Alesis Micron, Proteus 2000 and Roland DR-5). I hope that with a future release of Cubase 4 that you can fix these MIDI synchronization issues as it really makes it very difficult when working on projects. Worse, you have to attempt to open a project several times just to get the MIDI working again. The stability of MIDI in Cubase SX was one of its main selling points. Unfortunately, that apparently has now gone away with Cubase 4. BTW, I do have all the latest updates from NI for each of these VSTs. One last thing.. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE set the Windows task priority AFTER the project is loaded. Always load the project at 'Normal' priority so it doesn't kill the machine during load. Also, please set the task priority to 'Normal' when doing fast mixdowns (or at least, let the user set it in the mixdown panel). There is no need to kill the machine during a fast mixdown. One last issue with Cubase 4. On projects were I'm using Battery 3, some drums are cut off abruptly or the effects sound odd during fast mixdown. If I use real-time mixdown or listen to it in real-time, it doesn't do this. I've never had this issue with SX 3. SX 3 has always mixed down sounding proper either in real-time or in fast mixdown. This is definitely something new that was introduced in Cubase 4.
jeffdeno (guru) 09/04/07 10:56 AM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	do you loose midi conectivity during working on a project? or are ports not showing up when you launch a project? Do you have the midisport plugged into a usb hub?
commorancy (Newbie) 09/07/07 10:34 AM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	The midisport is plugged directly into a motherboard USB port. Keep in mind that I've never had any difficulties with the Midisport when using it with Cubase SX 3. And yes, I lose connectivity while working on a project in the middle of working on it. I'm going along for a while editing and everything's working. Then, sometime later, I hit play and I notice some of the tracks seem missing in the output. I look at the Midisport and none of the outs are lighting up. I've tried resetting the MIDI, unplugging and replugging the Midisport and about every other thing I can try. Cubase 4 just won't send data over the port for whatever reason. Sometimes I restart Cubase 4 and it works fine. Other times, I have to reboot the computer itself to get Cubase 4 to talk to the Midisport again. I'd never had this problem with Cubase SX 3. The only thing new is Cubase 4. I've changed nothing about the drivers to the Midisport. Thanks.
jeffdeno (guru) 09/10/07 09:46 AM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	I will do a little research and see if i can come up with a an answer.
commorancy (Newbie) 09/15/07 11:41 PM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	Well, here's more to this issue... and step by step what I did. I have a project that is, at the moment, real MIDI combined with two VSTs (Battery 3 and MOTU Symphonic). Battery 3 has a drum kit loaded and MOTU has one sound bank loaded (a piano). There are 4 total tracks, one MIDI, one MOTU, two Battery 3. It's an early work and I've not yet progressed much on it yet. Anyway, here's what I did that led up to the problems.. 1) I progress to the point where I've got four total tracks (one MIDI, one MOTU / Piano, two Battery 3 drum kit tracks). It's working great until... 2) I have another partial project I had been previously working on and I wanted to copy and paste some MIDI segments from that project into this one. It should be simple enough... but.. 3) With the current project open, I open the other project. Opening more than one project at the same time was always unstable in SX 3 (and is also a known issue), but I'd hoped it had been fixed in Cubase 4. Apparently it hasn't... Anyway, I don't intend working on the other project. I just want to copy some portions from it and paste it into my current project. I copy the relevant portions to the copy buffer. Then, I close the project. Here's where the fun begins... 4) After the other project closes, the VSTs must reload again in the first project. The first time Cubase 4 tries to do this, it simply just hangs trying to load the one sample bank from MOTU leading to 'Application not responding' and practically killing my machine (I can't even bring up task manager). I end up killing Cubase 4 from the 'Application not responding' panel that appears... and that takes a while to happen. 5) So, I make sure it's all dead and start it back up again. I try the process again. The first time I tried, I copied and then tried to close before the paste. Because of the crash, I didn't get anywhere. So, this time I decided I would paste (then save the file) BEFORE trying to close the older project. At least that much worked. But, again.. I close the project after the paste... Again, more fun begins... 6) This time the VSTs actually load... except.. NOTHING IS WORKING. The application cursor bar moves across the screen and the bars in each of the tracks jump like it's actually playing something, but the VSTs don't play and neither does the MIDI. So, the application is completely hosed. I close and restart the app. The system is STILL in this state. The cursor bar moves, but no sound from either the VSTs or from MIDI. With the MIDI I can see that nothing is being transmitted. So, now, I'm going to have reboot to reset whatever communication system is hosed within Cubase 4. I also find that I randomly see 'Application not responding' when simply trying to open a single previously created project containing VSTs. I'll then have to kill Cubase 4. This may also be what's leading to the broken MIDI communications. I also found a workaround to the hanging VST loading issue, but I have no idea why it works: 1) Open Cubase 4 2) Create a new blank project 3) Open and close each VST one at a time making sure to close all VSTs before step 4. 4) Close the 'new blank' project 5) Open the previous project using those VSTs. 6) All of the VSTs load without issue. If I leave it to chance without following the above steps, it's about a 50/50 chance the application will go into 'Application not responding' mode and I'll have to kill it. This may leave the application in 'no sound' state as I just showed.
jeffdeno (guru) 09/17/07 11:01 AM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	Very strange. Your performance meter isn't running fairly high when this is going on is it?
commorancy (Newbie) 09/18/07 02:19 AM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	The CPU meter is probably at 10% or less usage. It only starts tacking on usage once I start adding effects VSTs like DynamicCompression or Sonic Maximizer. But, this early into working on the track, I hadn't added any effects yet. So, the CPU usage is extremely low. The difficulty/bug appears to be related to the VST loading engine. I'm also not sure what kind of internal communication/syncronization system that the programmers are using. If it's some kind of pipe or similar thread synchronization system, that could be what's getting hosed up (at least as far as the 'no sound / no midi' issue) after the application gets killed forcebly. But, the above is likely only incidentally related to why the VSTs don't want to load fully when opening a previous project. This loading issue looks to be a problem with the VST loading engine (loading too many too fast and/or a racing condition). This VST issue was definitely not present and has never happened when running Cubase SX 3. For SX 3, I'm running 3.1.1 from October 2005 and it may not be the most current update. For Cubase 4, I'm running 4.0.2 from Feb 2007.
jeffdeno (guru) 09/18/07 09:53 AM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	are these the only two vst instruments you are having trouble with? Or is this issue popping up with every instrument?
commorancy (Newbie) 09/23/07 11:26 AM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	I primarly use Absynth 4, FM8, Battery 3, MOTU and HSO. So, yes, these are the primary VSTs I use regularly (at least for now). The VST load hanging issue happens on any of them and is basically random. Although, I can't recall seeing it happening on HSO. But, that doesn't mean it won't or can't happen on it. As far as the problems with VST loading, it seems to happen randomly on any of the VSTs that are in the loading chain. When the loading panel appears, the blue bar begins moving (somewhat). Then, the bar just stops moving and hangs in place, a VST is listed in the panel that it appears to be trying to load. Although, I know from experience that could mean failure trying to load the next VST rather than the current one shown. Worse, Cubase 4 then starts messing with CPU load and the audio system as the machine begins hanging in intervals (stop/start) and the audio buffer begins hanging in loop on and off (if anything happens to be playing in Winamp). It takes me several tries and a bunch of fiddling to get the 'Application not responding' panel to appear to finally get Cubase 4 killed. Even once I click 'End Now' it takes some time before Cubase 4 actually closes. Thankfully, it does. As I said, it doesn't do this in Cubase SX 3. I've only once ever had VSTs hang on loading in SX 3 and I believe it had to do with trying to load a project after having tried to load multiple projects in the app at once (a known bug). It's funny, I can work in SX 3 right now without issue. I cannot load Cubase 4 and work in it at all until I reboot. The system is still has the 'no sound' state from earlier and won't play any sound out of Cubase 4. Yes, I still need to reboot. Cubase SX 3 operates without any issues, however. Although, I can't load any Cubase 4 projects in SX 3, obviously.
jeffdeno (guru) 09/24/07 10:01 AM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	Are these linked to specific projects or any projects you create?
commorancy (Newbie) 09/25/07 01:26 AM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	Not really. I've opened several new and old projects and they all can potentially do the hanging VST thing. As long as they contain those VSTs, it has a chance of hanging on load. It's funny, though. If I run ProcessMonitor and monitor Cubase4.exe specifically, it slows the loading down just enough to prevent the hanging VST issue. If I let the app load without this tracing application running, then it has the potential to hang. Because of this behavior with ProcessMonitor, to me it appears to be some kind of racing condition that leaves the app hanging waiting on something. I was running ProcessMonitor in hopes that I could get it to hang while tracing the application and then I could send the trace to you. But, I can't seem to get Cubase 4 to hang with ProcessMonitor running (as I explained above). Also, when the app does hang, I found out that Cubase4.exe remains in the process list and cannot be killed even though the interface eventually goes way. I've tried killing it with Task Manager and Process Explorer (even trying to kill the hanging thread internally) and it doesn't go away. I have to reboot to clear this process out. This is likely why there's no sound after these hangs... because the app doesn't fully exit.
jeffdeno (guru) 09/25/07 11:59 AM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	It might be an issue with one of the plugin's in particular. I would do a test and isolating each one. but it also my just be a combination of those plugins together combined with the computer you are running it on.
commorancy (Newbie) 09/25/07 03:47 PM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	I would tend to agree that it may be a 'computer + vst' specific problem IF I had the same issue in SX 3. I don't and never have. That's the issue. Something has changed in the VST loading code between Cubase SX 3 and Cubase 4 to cause this problem. If I load a project in SX 3 with any or all of these VSTs, I never have a loading problem. If I load a project in Cubase 4, it hangs. That's the issue. Again, SOMETHING has changed in the VST loading codebase between SX 3 and Cubase 4 that is now causing this issue. If it happened in BOTH applications, then yes I would attribute it to a hardware specific issue. However, since SX 3 doesn't display this problem, then the problem HAS to be something that was introduced into the codebase in Cubase 4 (perhaps the programmers were trying to reduce loading times in VSTs?). There are few other explanations that fit. BTW, knowing that it is related to the VST loading code should give the programmers a HUGE clue as to where to look in the code. If the programmers have a proper changelog, they can review that changelog to see what code may have been altered related to VST loading. If they still have the Cubase SX 3 branch and the Cubase 4 branch in CVS (or whatever version control they are using), they should even be able to take that code into WinMerge and look at the differences. Knowing where to look for code changes is half the battle. Once you can isolate the problematic code, then you can review it for possible issues. Of course, if you can't easily reproduce the issue, it makes it more difficult to debug. But, seeing the changed code should allow the programmers to revisit the optimizations they may have made.
commorancy (Newbie) 09/25/07 03:58 PM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	In answer to your first question (asking if it's just one VST), the answer is no. I've had it hang on FM8 in one project. In another, I had it hang on Battery 3. In another, I've had it hang on MOTU. In all three of these projects, there wasn't one common VST. For example, in the FM8 project, I only have FM8 present and no other external VSTs. In the MOTU project, I only had MOTU present with no other VSTs. So, it's not related to one specific VST.
jeffdeno (guru) 09/26/07 01:08 PM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	i will do some further research on the subject. I have two out of the 3 vst's you are refering to and i don't seem to be having the same issues on my end. But i will do further testing and see if i can recreate the problem on my end.
commorancy (Newbie) 10/14/07 05:00 AM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	Jeff, Thanks for looking into these issues. However, I have decided to move back to SX 3 and abandon using Cubase 4 at the present. The reasons are as follows: * SX 3 loads all of my VSTs without issue * Output sound from SX 3 sounds better than 4 (to my ears) * I don't have to fight with the interface to get things done. * The addition of the master control room interferes with the VSTs (sometimes you have to do extra configuration within the VST to get them to work, configuration that doesn't save) * The new dynamic compression VST addition to Cubase 4 sounds bad and is hard to control (even though it has more presets and a prettier/simpler interface). * It is possible to use the old dynamic compression VST in 4, but it's now on a very deep submenu making it inconvenient. * When doing fast mixdowns, Cubase 4 has tendencies to cut certain samples off early or not play the sample at all (from specific VSTs) that play normally in real-time. * When using set of somewhat high CPU load VSTs (at least on my system), it's sometimes impossible to do a real-time mixdown without skipping and audio glitching problems... leaving only a fast mixdown as an option. When the fast mixdown is combined with the above VST cut-off issue, it's impossible to get a mixdown at all without modifying the project. * Cubase 4 accepts MIDI input during fast mixdown. So, while I'm waiting for a mixdown to finish, I like to diddle with my keyboard on new ideas. The audio mixdown ends up with random notes in the mix of the currently selected track on completion of the fast mixdown. Why doesn't Cubase 4 ignore MIDI input during a fast mixdown? * In Cubase 4, resetting the audio device in the 'Devices->Device Setup...' panel no longer halts audio output. Any VST effects continue to play until the decay has completed. Cubase 3 stopped all effects by resetting the bus (other than external MIDI devices). In fact, there should be a single click button on the main panel that lets you stop all audio output no matter the source (i.e., it resets MIDI and it halts all VST output). This is handy when you want to begin a mixdown, but have to wait for the decay of a reverb or echo. And, of course, all of the other issues I've already previously addressed. I'll just chalk my $200 upgrade fee up to experience. This is really one of the major issues with Steinberg software because you can't try before you buy. I'll continue to watch for the next update of Cubase 4, give that a try and hope it resolves the majority of my issues. Thanks for your help.
jeffdeno (guru) 10/16/07 08:30 AM	Re: Buggy Cubase 4 issues
	sounds good. I will send you a message when the next update is available.

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